The term used in academic literature and the field itself for that kind of technology is and has been AI for at least ten years. Intelligence doesn’t imply independence anyways? And besides, even if it did, thats why an entire 50% of the term consists of the modifier “artificial”. So like, you’re right that it isn’t intelligence in the colloquial sense. It’s artificial intelligence in the technical and standardized sense, though. The use of term is pretty much totally undebatable. Just because people don’t like the term now doesn’t change that.

But it is AI, so it should be called that. People should adjust their simplistic notions about the term instead

This reminds me of that scene in Breaking Bad where the two morons were talking about how if you ask an undercover cop if they’re cop they legally have to tell you the truth

I am beginning to suspect that 90% of programming memes are made by beginners and 90% of the engagement with them is also from beginners. Maybe I’m just projecting. I remember seeing this stuff when I was starting and just assuming that must be how it is.

Yes, that’s true. It was definitely not my intent to imply that such people are not professionals. They do seem to be a very small part of the overall software developer world. To me it seems like 90% of devs are doing full stack UI, API, DB type stuff. But it probably seems the other way to people doing the other things.

Oh yes, I definitely agree with this. If you NEED an IDE that’s certainly not a good sign no matter what you’re working in. Although I can see in certain codebases with huge amounts of macros, functions, weird or inconsistent syntax, that an IDE might be basically necessary to be productive. But for sure agreed that I could do my job just via a text editor if I had to. Sure wouldn’t enjoy it though 😅

I admit I haven’t known any Unix hackers! I guess my type of work had me assuming they would still prefer an IDE. What is it about this kind of development that makes you prefer text editors, if you don’t mind my asking?

Still super cool to hear about your workflow. Makes me wish I had an excuse to spend time experimenting with that stuff.

Everyone has given many good and enlightening responses but picking yours to put the majority of my thoughts in. Yes, for sure I can see there being more specialized disciplines that don’t make much use of IDE’s. I shouldn’t have made the same mistake as the meme! Not to sound like an LLM but “you’re absolutely right!” lol. I certainly have my niche and I can see people spending their whole career in a niche where IDEs are superfluous. I like your balanced take on it.

The Minecraft world editor? They use that for developing non-Minecraft world software? That’s pretty fascinating. What sort of things do they develop with it?

Hey, I was explicitly being open to being wrong and acknowledging that I may simply not have encountered those kinds of professionals. I don’t even think I was being hostile, only saying that from my perspective the idea of this meme is a misunderstanding propagated by people with less experience.

But rather than present any evidence, even anecdotal, taking it personally (even as a joke) serves only to publicly make me look more correct 🤷

I have never seen or known a serious professional who preferred to work outside of a full featured IDE. All the most skilled and highest paid developers I’ve ever known were more adamant about using the IDE when compared to the less skilled developers who preferred to do things more via command line and text editors. Just my experience. I often suspect that this meme is shared and liked by people who aren’t really professionals. Perhaps I just haven’t encountered them yet.

Edit: It seems I indeed haven’t encountered them! Although I do stand by my original point to the extent that it seems there are disciplines where IDEs are best and disciplines where they aren’t. I enjoyed reading everyone’s responses and thinking about areas of software that I don’t usually think about. It’s given me lots to look into. Thanks everyone who responded nicely! Also, I definitely did not mean to imply that specialists working without IDEs are amateurs or anything like that! Much respect to everyone out there making software.

Why is bro posting on Lemmy then

Fuckin exactly.

“It’s stupid to change it to main, it’s just words”

“Oh, so since it’s just a word change I guess you shouldn’t be bothered by it.”

Angry NPC face

Thank you for saying this. I’m seeing this thinking, have people used native apps recently? They’re not as great as people say. Have they tried coding a UI in a native library instead of the holy HTML CSS JS trifecta? It’s usually fairly miserable and usually extremely non-customizable by comparison.

All this hating on Electron, hating on UE5, etc. really rubs me the wrong way. Firstly because people talk about optimization and “the good old days” while ignoring that we have completely different requirements these days. The new Witcher game isn’t fucking Quake. It’s gonna use some hardware. What do you want people to do? Implement custom rendering engines for every game? That’s the same as saying you want less games, because most teams literally cannot do that for various reasons, and the same applies to the Electron apps.

Like, I get it. Things should be optimized. But I feel like “software is unoptimized now” is mostly a meme propagated by tech and gaming YouTubers who don’t really know what they’re talking about, through an audience of wannabes who don’t really know what they’re talking about. People whining about le yandere dev toothbrush!1!1! And le undertale dialogue if statements!1!1!. E.g I remember hearing people saying that because borderlands has a cel-shaded effect it should be cheaper to render - a completely wrong and backwards statement.

It’s incredible how gamers think they understand rendering technology just because they play a lot of video games. And similarly I don’t like when developers (and probably a lot of non-developers) make a lot of assumptions about other people’s apps. See the complaints about Spotify memory usage. We don’t know anything about how Spotify works internally. There could be an algorithm running to determine which songs to queue up next which is analyzing multiple songs at once, or all sorts of other things. It’s so presumptuous to just look at an app in Task Manager and be like “pathetic, I could do better”, especially if it runs without problems on your device. And maybe it is built with Electron? So what? That just means that you’re paying some RAM in order to get an always updated UI that is matching what you get everywhere else. Like are we just gonna neglect that Electron provides a basically fully homogenous experience across all platforms with no extra code needed? We’re just gonna act like that’s worth nothing? It’s so entitled to say “nooooo I need you to spend an extra $2M/yr paying a Windows 8 UI dev team so that the Windows 8 Native App can have a full ten years of service and it can use 80 MB instead of 1 GB of RAM so that way I can also use this app and 200 other glorious native apps all simultaneously but also I don’t want to pay any more for the product and I don’t care if you’re a solo developer because back in my day solo developers authored papers about their custom algorithms and if you don’t do that but with my new 100x more demanding requirements you’re trash”.

What about the other way around? Are there artists on Bandcamp that aren’t on Spotify? I would imagine that Bandcamp has more small indie artists and Spotify has more major ones, right? That’s great that they have the editorials. But what I really crave is some sort of “tracks similar to this” feature - a lot of times I’m in a very particular mood or looking for something very specific where I know one or two songs that hit the mark and want more.

I’ve been thinking about this too. Does anyone know if band camp is any good for this sort of thing?? I know that you can listen to some music there.

Music is one of the few things where I actually like for the service to have a recommendation algorithm. I don’t think Bandcamp has anything like that. I’m not opposed to switching up my ways of discovering new music and instead just finding it by engaging with communities… But let’s be honest that isn’t quite as effective nor as plentiful as a good algorithm. If bandcamp doesn’t really have any way of discovering artists then it just seems sort of supplementary.

I NEED this for my next in-person PI Planning

Yeah, you’re absolutely right and I agree. So then do we have to resign the situation to being an eternal back-and-forth of just developing random new challenges every time the scrapers adapt to them? Like antibiotics for viruses? Maybe that is the way it is. And honestly that’s what I suspect. But Anubis feels so clever and so close to something that would work. The concept of making it about a cost that adds up, so that it intrinsically only effects massive processes significantly, is really smart…since it’s not about coming up with a challenge a computer can’t complete, but just a challenge that makes it economically not worth it to complete. But it’s disappointing to see that, at least with the current wait times, it doesn’t seem like it will cost enough to dissuade scrapers. And worse, the cost is so low that it seems like making the cost significant to the scrapers will require really insufferable wait times for users.

By negligence, I meant that the cost is negligible to the companies running scrapers, not that the solution itself is negligent. I should have said “negligibility” of Anubis, sorry - that was poor clarity on my part.

But I do think that the cost of it is indeed negligible, as the article shows. It doesn’t really matter if the author is biased or not, their analysis of the costs seems reasonable. I would need a counter-argument against that to think they were wrong. Just because they’re biased isn’t enough to discount the quantification they attempted to bring to the debate.

Also, I don’t think there’s any hypocrisy in me saying I’ve only thought about other solutions here and there - I’m not maintaining an anti-scraping library. And there’s already been indications that scrapers are just accepting the cost of Anubis on Codeberg, right? So I’m not trying to say I’m some sort of tech genius who has the right idea here, but from what Codeberg was saying, and from the numbers in this article, it sure looks like Anubis isn’t the right idea. I am indeed only having fun with my suggestions, not making whole libraries out of them and pronouncing them to be solutions. I personally haven’t seen evidence that Anubis is so clearly working? As the author points out, it seems like it’s only working right now because of how new it is, but if scrapers want to go through it, they easily can - which puts us in a sort of virus/antibiotic eternal war of attrition. And if course that is the case with many things in computing as well. So I guess my open wondering are just about if there’s ever any way to develop a countermeasure that the scrapers won’t find “worth it” to force through?

Edit for tone clarity: I’m don’t want to be antagonistic, rude, or hurtful in any way. Just trying to have a discussion and understand this situation. Perhaps I was arrogant, if so I apologize. It was also not my intent, fwiw. Also, thanks for helping me understand why I was getting downvoted. I intended my post to just be constructive spitballing about what I see as the eventual inevitable weakness in Anubis. I think it’s a great project and it’s great that people are getting use out of it even temporarily, and of course the devs deserve lots of respect for making the thing. But as much as I wish I could like it and believe it will solve the problem, I still don’t think it will.